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 What We Know So Far - Ritual magic

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Camillius

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PostSubject: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:42 am

OK, all of this is with the usual 'subject to change' caveat.. and of course the wiki will be out soon, albeit with settings but not mechanics information.

Some information I gathered at ODC 2 this year concerning Empire's ritual magic.

Ritual mages will be required to spend skill points in Ritual magic, and these must be spent in specific realms (Summer, Autumn, Spring, Winter, Night, Day). So you might have, for example a Summer mage with 6 pts of Summer Ritual power.. or a mix of 3 spring, 3 autumn etc....

Rituals will require certain amounts of certain flavours of ritual power to be available in the ritual. As far as I know, there are no limits on the number of mages that can be used to contribute to a single ritual.

Rituals will come in 3 forms.
Firstly, scrolls - which may be consumable items. These will be the ones we find during play or perhaps in downtime.
Second, spellbooks - PD are expecting us mages to keep spellbooks with any permanent spells/rituals we use. This might be a way to preserve rituals we get on scrolls.. since our spellbooks are permanent phys-reps. Whether or not there are specific rules about putting information into the books is unknown at this point.
Lastly.. improv. We can entirely improvise/experiment with ritual effects and ritual power levels/flavours. Results might not be as expected.. and there are inherent risks.. but who knows what we might come up with.

Also - rituals will involve a definate Role-played component. It's not simply a matter of going to a ref and saying we're doing a ritual for this with this much power available. Think along the lines of supplications from maelstrom.. but perhaps with some flair added.

Finally.. mundane items and props can give rituals better chances of success or improved results. For example, there is mention in the briefings about bells being used to ward evil spirits. So a ritual involving bells might get a better result in trying to defeat evil spirits than a ritual with voice alone.
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cheezewizz2000



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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:34 pm

There is a warmup game that we play in fencing where we all jog around in a circle and our coach shouts out a number and we perform an action.

I thought something similar, with numbers replaced with traditional elements or seasons and the actions losely based on them would serve for something to do during rituals.

For example:

When the ritual leader shouts "Fire" the ritualists clap their hands once in unison to make the sound of a hearth popping. "Water" and the ritualists hiss and turn to jog the other way. "Air" and the ritualists jump and whoop. "Earth" and they all tough the ground with both hands". This is good as these keywords can be sprinkled within an existing incantation:

"We call upon you spirits of earth! *ground pound*
Rise up to defend us from the unholy fire! *clap*
Guard us with walls of earth! *ground pound*
Make our shields hold like the bones of earth! *ground pound*

If we can keep the actions limited but add pseudonyms in as well "stone, rock, dirt, mud" for earth, "hearth, pyre, inferno, sun" for fire, "storm, wind, clouds" for air and "river, sea, ocean, rain" for water it will make incantions less repetitve. Making sure that there are only 4-6 actions will make them easy to remember. Ensuring each key word is only used at the END of a line (with a nice pause after it) will make it clear to ritualists when they need to perfom an action. We can maintain poise and arete by perhaps just walking, rather than jogging as well.

This way as well, there is no complex choreography needed. Everyone knows what to do when the ritual leader says "earth" and they do it. The only preperation needed is for the ritual leader to write out his incantation on a scroll so he can remember where all the keywords go.
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Camillius

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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:56 am

From the Empire FB :-

When it comes to rituals in Empire there will be a 'body of lore' that the Empire as a whole has. This'll represent known rituals.

If you're casting a ritual you 'know' (and theres a bit more to it than that but I'm summarizing) then the ritual costs x mana and participants and black sheep or whatever. Our shorthand for this internally is 'formulaic'

If you're casting a ritual that the Empire knows but that you don't, then the ritual might cost 2x. We internally call this 'spontaneous' ritual casting.

If you're trying to make something up on the fly that doesn't exist as part of the body of Imperial Lore, then it might cost 3x. Internally we call this 'making it up as you go along.' This sort of ritual can go wrong, in theory; if you look at all the healing rituals and see they all need a bucket of water, then there is a good chance that if you try to cast a made-up-on-the-spot healing ritual without a bucket of water it might go tits up - the details are still being hammered out so I can't say much more on this.

There's a lot of side-things here. We THINK that it is possible for players to direct the Imperial Experimental Theurgists to work on codifying 'make it up as you go along' rituals to shift them from insanely expensive to part of the body of Imperial lore. We THINK there will be known and inferrable laws of magic (like the bucket of water example above), and we're discussing how much OOC and IC guidance you can get before you and your mates put their mana where their insane idea is.

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Camillius

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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:17 pm

A post for Andy Raff with some more info on rituals... Still not the rules we're all no doubt waiting for, but interesting nonetheless:-

"So a busy few days on rituals and items. There'll be no real rules in here, I'm mostly doing it because I need to wind down before I go in the bath, and I'm feeling a bit guilty because I'm takin the rest of the day off to go out for some games while the boss is having to drive to Durham. Still, it'll be really nice to get away from the damn computer.

Aaaaaaanyway. The bad news from today's work is that I've lost "Reaping Scythe of Devastation and Loss" from Winter and gained something a bit more "Metal to Candyfloss" in Night, but the good news is that I've got "Revelation of Daoloth You're Not Keeping That Name Andy" back in Day, and "Horn of Jericho" now in Summer, which makes me 'appy.

We also spent a chunk of today working through the thorny subject of magic that has potential to discourage murder and casual theft, and I am reasonably comfortable where we are with that (and I suspect that the Autumn ritualists touting their magical UV pens and thaumaturical GPS trackers to the elite will be happy with it too). I think it is still possible to profit from theft, but it requires more than just knifing some guy at the urinal and stealing his shoes. We'll see. As always, we started from the supposition that the punishment for murder is severe and the punishment for theft is less severe, and moved on from there.

The economic-factor rituals are shaping up nicely, we've still got a chunk of work to do on the larger-scale end of rituals but again we're making progress. We're seeing some of the realm themes develop, but mostly I'm pleased with how robust they've proved. I'm hoping we can keep some of the odder ones like "Smacked Nose of the Inquisitive Child" (I wanted 'puppy' but the Boss said 'Child' was more winter-y), and I'm pleased that "Missive for Sadogua" has made it past the second round of censorship. Not that I'll get to *play* Sadogua, but its the thought that counts.

We're still not done, but I'm hoping to get at least some spoilers of rituals up. I think we've created a scenario where you don't *have* to take any spells if you don't want to, and where the versatiliy of the ritualist to resource cost is working well. A Day ritualist in the middle of the woods after a battle with plagewulfs can save himself and his buddies from deadly venom spontaneously, but a coven of day ritualists can in theory use "The Ascetic Star of Atun" to save an entire band of Varushkan warders ... assuming they have a big enough wheelbarrow of mana crystals. While there'll be some worries that this treads on the feet of the spellcasting magician who isn't a ritualist, I'm comfortable that the fact that the shortest time you can do a ritual in at the moment is two minutes, as opposed to ten seconds in the middle of a battle, means that casters will always be superior to ritualists when they are in the thick of things, and outside a fight they can preserve their personal mana and let the ritualists worry about how to remove WEAKNESS from 30 people ... while of course spending a moment or two to purify their buddies *right now* so *someone* can keep an eye out for more catoblepasses.

A lot of writing work has had to be put on hold for the moment while there's some focus on the upcoming mailshot. I'm constantly impressed with the assorted writers who work on Empire stuff, leaving me to swan around making blog posts and tinkering with magic items. They've rallied round a job that had slipped under our radar but is very time sensitive, and made me proud etc etc

We also did an hour or so on portal travel, teleporting off-site for assorted reasons (using the hall of worlds for Conclave business; skirmishes; battles; maybe some quests occasionally) and now that I think we've made difficult decisions there a load of subsidiary stuff should fall into place.

Oh before I forget, I'd suggest apothecaries appraise themselves of the changes to the infusions of Feathers - following the confirmation that we are doing something with rituals, I've removed a potion I wasn't happy with and replaced it with one I much prefer, that is a lot more in keeping with the theme of those potions as visionary drugs pioneered by everyone's favourite animal-mask-wearing mystics.

What else? Not a lot. Mostly my days right now are consumed with rituals, rituals, the occasional magic item, and rituals. I've got the external review copy of dramaturgy back I just need to work out how to slice that particular cake, and I've got a day or so of work with the boss before I can start working out how the hell to portray astromancy. I've mentioned dramaturgy before (the idea of symbols and people and stuff using acting to create and manipulate stories, as well as iconic figures with ritual resonance), but astromancy is quite new. Kate Lee has taken the massive task of translating the night sky over Torunament Stud into a slightly different set of patterns, keyed to the world of Empire and the needs of the ritual magic (and indeed magic-magic) systems. I've just got to work out where the angels fit in ..."

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davelowry



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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:58 am

There's one Night Ritual spoiled .. magnitute six.

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davelowry



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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:59 am

I tell a lie .. there's more than one spoiled.

THere's a picture album on the facebook group called "Ritual Spoilers" --
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.328531853913539&type=1
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Camillius

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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:58 pm

Here's the rest..










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Camillius

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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:09 pm

And now a few more...














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Camillius

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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:09 pm

And one that should have been saved for 01.04


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Acrozatarim



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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:12 pm

I'm currently working as fast as I can on ritual concepts :p
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noliar

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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:27 pm

Cross posted from the Endsmeet board because it's not secret.

OK, pricing coven rituals based on the spoiler for Rivers of Gold.
Measurable costs:
crystal mana (M)
daily capacity for each mage to take part in a coven ritual (coven fee) (2C)

More complex amounts:
each mage's personal fee (assumed to be in cash rather than shares, no patriotism discount, level boosters at the mage's own expense but they'll hardly want to take a loss on their use)
profit = 180 rings - sum of costs for increment

Assumptions:
profit must be greater than 0 or an increment will not be added
mages will not charge less for higher levels of lore than for the lower ones given that those higher levels cost them more, likewise effective levels from mastery. L1+2+3+4 >= 4L1 and Lxm >= Lx
it is nonetheless more profitable to use high lore masters where possible because it minimises C and M costs (and faffing about trying to get a bigger coven together)
later increments will tend less efficient as the good autumn ritualists are used up.

A business owner will still make a ring of profit if he pays 179 rings to add 8 lore 1 mages to an existing ritual therefore
8L1 + 8M + 8C <= 179
However, if a new increment is less profitable than the base ritual the owner would be better served by waiting and then having a new ritual cast than adding an increment. Further, no owner is going to go to the trouble for a net profit in single figure rings - they are risking money up front for a return next season. Keeping the cost to 120ish is more reasonable. Each spod accounts for a cost of 15 rings

without mastery
L1+2+3+4 + C is at least as cheap as 4L1 + 4C since the saving in C is the only benefit the business owner sees for using the higher lore mage.

with mastery
L(1+2+3+4)(1+m) + 4M + C is cheaper than 8L1 + 8M + 8C

Lets say all levels of effective lore L are created equal (the mages won't give a discount and the owner won't pay a premium). The master with ring will want a personal fee 8 times that of the spod and will save the owner 7C + 4M. The owner being canny, that means the spod's personal fee L must be less than C +4M/7.
If we set L= 5, C=4 and M=6
Base ritual with top talent costs 16x5 + 2x4 + 8x6 = 136
Increment 1 with master 3 and spod costs 7x5 + 2x4 + 4x6 = 67 (nice!)
and limit increment costs 120.

A 5/5/5 split works even better and the advanced ritualists among us would prefer 6/5/4 of course but those who want to make money of mana sites without casting themselves won't like it.

Those values seem like a fair enough guess to start trading with. Does this make sense?


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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:21 pm

I think some of the models base assumptions are misleading:
You use three factors involved in cost, except in practice I don't think the differentiation between coven fees and the fees for an individual are as separable as you propose, and this whole idea of minimising C costs by using high lore masters is absurd.

The Coven can only cast two rituals a day, yes this cost is effectively on the individuals ritual casting capacity fair enough. The problem is at some point the conclusion that has been drawn is that having 8 apprentices cast a ritual should be cheaper than two L4's. Whatever happens the coven casting its spells has cast one of them, and that limits all mages involved in the casting coven.

The L4 mages probably know more rituals (by default they know 8 alone as compared to 2 each for the apprentices.) Restricting what they can cast should be more expensive than restricting what 4 apprentices can cast, because there are far more rituals he can contribute too. 8 Battlemages who all dipped autumn 1 rivers of gold by comparison can probably do very little else as a coven, so the loss of casting capacity for money is less problematic.

However a wizard powerful enough to cast the ritual on his own doesn't have a coven cost at all (So an L8 autumn mage, since I think rituals you can cast alone aren't counted. He could probably uncut the covens, but in practice I doubt this would in practice be a large discount, since by this point you need an absurdly powerful wizard.

If anything unless wizards are preparing to be absurdly hyper flexible with their coven membership rules as written allow for leaving a coven before they have cast a ritual to cast with another coven. The real issue is size of coven compared to the rituals requirements. It would be cheaper to pay for a coven of the exact size rather than pay a EC cost for caster who won't be contributing to the ritual.
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noliar

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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:09 pm

I am assuming that mages will switch around between covens to optimise for rituals they want to cast - to switch out of your normal coven into the one casting the ritual and then back again costs 3 personal mana and you have four per day - better to spend the mana than waste your coven ritual per day slots if you don't expect to be spell casting. If you are joining a coven just for one ritual you are effectively buying your coven fee with personal mana. I certainly expect it to happen for big military rituals.* I don't expect the business owner to pay for he idle members of the coven - the coven fee is only paid to participating ritualists.

*Indeed, while the exercise is based on Rivers of Gold as the epitome of a commercial mana to money ritual, I am not expecting private transactions will necessarily be negotiated using these parameter and actual prices will vary. The purpose of the exercise is to estimate a "fair" price when commissioning rituals for the Empire.
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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:32 pm

We're still adding ritual concepts and the high-ups are wrangling the economics, costs etc, so I wouldn't get too set on any such calculations just yet. There may be rituals and aspects of ritual casting and mana that have yet to be revealed which may throw your analysis off.
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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:35 am

http://www.profounddecisions.co.uk/empire-wiki/Twilight_Orb
http://www.profounddecisions.co.uk/empire-wiki/Radiant_Orb
http://www.profounddecisions.co.uk/empire-wiki/Amberglass_Orb

All varations on: Members of the coven who are performing a Night ritual they have mastered may use iridescent gloaming in the place of crystal mana. Every two measures of Iridescent Gloaming spent count as 1 crystal mana.
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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:10 pm

http://www.profounddecisions.co.uk/empire-wiki/The_Green_World

Once per day the coven may perform a Spring ritual that does not count towards their daily limit of rituals performed.
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Acrozatarim



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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:08 pm

A whole pile of them are up on the public wiki now.

Hopefully expect the first finalised rituals to go up before too long as well.
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Thor Odinson



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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:01 pm

Marcus - Wanna go splits on getting the 'River of Gold' on the tent :p
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Acrozatarim



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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:40 pm

First batch of rituals are now beginning to appear on the Empire wiki.

Edit: However, addendum to the above, please don't do relentless F5'ing of the Recent Changes page, it slows the wiki down and makes ritual uploads slower too as a result Wink
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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:16 pm

The Autumn Rituals have entries but no descriptions yet :/
http://www.profounddecisions.co.uk/empire-wiki/Category:Autumn_Ritual

Winter appears to be mostly curses and death and summer appears to be battle spells..

The ritual list is here:
http://www.profounddecisions.co.uk/empire-wiki/Category:Rituals
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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:42 am

WOAH!
I might have a Farm as a resource, and aim to get the 'Golden Harvest' Ritual popped onto it!
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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:56 am

Remember, Gathering the Harvest only works once per year (you get the money at event 4) and needs two other rituals from other realms to be cast in previous seasons. The seasonal sequence of farm enchantments averages more money per magnitude but less in total and with more complexity.

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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:18 pm

..... Umm... Right. how about I just sell the booze - Far too complicated sounding.
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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:41 am

So, we know a lot more about how rituals, covens, items and regio's interact now - what changes should I make to my costing analysis in light of what we now know?
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PostSubject: Re: What We Know So Far - Ritual magic   Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:18 am

Actually how do Regio work? I've seen them mentioned but no explanation of what they are exactly.
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